Another sad tale of death and broken dreams comes to you from Long Island. Another tale of woe to help you escape from the latest celebrity dust up. I bring you a real life tragedy that will likely end up a WE TV special. Two families. One black. One white. One lie. One shot. One dead teenager.
On one side you have the Whites, an upper-middle class black family that moved to their dream home in Miller Place, NY in 2005. By all accounts, John White, 54, and his family integrated quite nicely into this mostly-white, Suffolk County bedroom community.
On the other you have the Cicciaros, a white family that has lived in Miller Place for years. Their home is the epitome of suburban living -- the huge manicured lawns and long stone driveways full of late model vehicles. This was a family seemingly in want of nothing, particularly their 17-year old crown prince, Daniel "Dano" Cicciaro, Jr.
Late on the evening of August 9, 2006, the world of the Whites and Cicciaros collided leaving behind a trail of tears and despair. That night, John White was roused from sleep by his frantic son, Aaron, who told his father, "they're going to kill me." They were Dano Cicciaro and four of his white friends who came after Aaron White after being told a lie by Jessica Herbert (a friend of both Dano and Aaron) that Aaron threatened to rape her.
John White emerged from his house with a gun in his hand and ordered Dano Cicciaro off his property. When he turned his back to walk towards his home, he was pursued by Cicciaro. White mistook this as a threat and shot Cicciaro in the face. He died not long after.
Soon after, a grand jury charged John White with second-degree manslaughter and third-degree criminal possession of a weapon. Yesterday, following a four-week trial, he was found guilty. You can read all about here in Newsday.
Now, here's where I piss more than a few people off. The jury reached the proper verdict.
In my mind, it's a question of culpability. There is no question that John White never intended to shoot Dano Cicciaro, yet the fact remains that he fired the shot. You can't take the bullet back. Someone once told me that good gunmanship teaches that you do not raise or aim a gun at someone unless you are prepared to kill them. That is the risk you take, and according to a Suffolk County jury, that is the risk John White will pay for in years of lost time.
I tip my hat to the jury for deciding how they did because this was a tough case, particularly since race was involved. Considering the number of days it took to reach a decision, and the fact that they asked to see all of the evidence and have all of the testimony read back to them, it says something of the painstaking scrutiny they applied in finding John White guilty.
That's the lawfully right decision, where the critical evidence is parsed and weighed and a verdict rendered.
The emotionally right decision would have been to let John White walk for having to endure the wrath of a bunch of drunk, over-indulged, ill-informed, racist white kids like Dano Cicciaro. But courts and juries aren't supposed to deal in emotions. Just the facts.
But while the facts say John White was wrong to emerge from his house with a loaded handgun and shoot Dano Cicciaro, it was equally as wrong for Dano Cicciaro and his four friends to show up at the White's to menace and threaten Aaron White. Some may argue that Dano's actions didn't kill anyone. Think again. Dano's actions that night got him killed by a man with a gun who did not trust that the law would be on his side.
John White is not atypical of black men living in the United States. He is one of tens of thousands of successful black men who were raised in the deep South and have vividly clear personal memories or have heard first-hand narratives of the beatings, lynchings and killings at the hands of white men; some of them cops. This deep mistrust for whites (especially police officers) is not something one would expect a black man like John White to forget very easily; even after achieving home ownership in the affluent town of Miller Place, NY. It's very easy to see why John White would emerge from his house with a gun, instead of calling the cops. It still doesn't make his actions right. According to my friend Tim, who serves on the SCPD, had John White called 9-1-1, several squad cars would have arrived in less than 5 minutes and would have arrested Cicciaro and his friends. All John White had to do was stay in his home, lock the doors and call the cops. Had John White made that 9-1-1 call, Dano Cicciaro would be alive and John White would not be going to jail.
But the 9-1-1 call not placed is that last of a series of missteps that night. In fact, I'd say it's a tragic confluence of stupidity. Dano Cicciaro, mourned though he may be, was not the aggrieved innocent victim his parents and friends make him to be. Despite the numerous denials of the Cicciaro family and their friends, Dano showed up at the White residence to cause trouble. He rolled up in with his friends in suped-up cars, shouted racial epithets and called for the head of Aaron white. He was drunk. He was stupid, and some might say, got what he deserved. Some like the people in this Newsday message board say that. I won't. No one really deserves to die. Yet I hold no sorrow for his loss either.
What I would say is that there is more to this story than most white folks are willing to admit to. This is not simply a case of racially-charged manslaughter. It goes right to the heart of what's eating this country from the inside out. Speaking as a white person, we like to think that in this day and age we've moved past the issue of race. After all, we now have a viable black candidate running for President in Barack Obama. Many of our favorite musicians, athletes, and actors are people of color. In fact, it would not have surprised me at all if Dano Cicciaro had rolled up to the White residence with the latest from Kanye West of 50 Cent blasting from the sound system in his car. The hip hop industry is built mostly on records sales to young, white males.
Yet ask any white person how they would respond if a black family moved next door to them, and they would be looking for ways to sell before their property values sank. They would say that they do not begrudge a black person any of his or her successes. They would say that they do not mind one bit if their sons and daughters listen to hip hop music or dress in the latest Fubu and SeanJohn fashions. Shit, Marc Ecko (nee Milecofsky) has made a fortune co-opting black, hip-hop, culture. But would they live next to a black man? Not on your fucking life.
The truth is we haven't moved far at all from the world described by Harper Lee in "To Kill a Mockingbird."
We still blame the black community for all that is wrong in this country and John White's conviction will do nothing but perpetuate that lie. He committed a crime. Of that, there is no doubt.
But why is there no one decrying the acts of Dano Cicciaro's friends? Why aren't they being brought up on charges of menacing? Why is so little commentary being offered on the significance of Jessica Herbert's lie? Why is no one outraged by the Cicciaro's raucous celebration after the guilty verdict was handed down? The Cicciaros were celebrating and hugging one another and calling this verdict a victory. A victory of what exactly? A victory of white culture over black? A victory of good over evil? You would think they had won the Super Bowl of trials by jury with the way they were hooting and hollering outside the courthouse while the John White's counsel was holding a press conference. This is the type of utter shamelessness that spawns other Dano Ciccaros into our midst, and will continue to incite good men like John White into committing
senseless crimes.
The sad thing in all this is that neither the black nor the white community will see this as another defeat for American society. Black folks will see this as another instance of justice not served. White folks, like the guy from whom I purchased my copy of Newsday this morning, will see this as payback for OJ being sprung. "It's about time we won one," he said to me. Again I ask, what exactly did we win?
I see it as a re-run of the same old racial bullshit; another sad tale in black and white replete with finger pointing and chest thumping; another emasculated episode of racial discord sanitized and dumbed down for the entertainment pleasure of the viewers of WE TV.
One More Article / Un Altro Articolo
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Over the years teaching at La Scuola d’Italia NY, I have learned that
children are not just students; they are careful observers of the world,
full of q...
6 months ago
Damned good post. I like your balanced approach and honestly it was refreshing to read because you recognized the disparities in both parties. Well done!
ReplyDeleteThis comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteIt is sad. Until the races find a way to walk in each others shoes there will still be little progress.
ReplyDeleteI see it everyday at school. White and Black kids that are friends don't understand what it is like to live in the other's cultures. The problem is that the White culture dominants the Black like wife beating husbands do there wives.
Seattle-thanks for stopping by. This was one of the hardest posts I've ever written because I had some difficulty reconciling my emotional sense with the what is in fact the law. As much as I would have liked to pull that trigger on assholes like Cicciaro and his friends, I can't.
ReplyDeleteDCup-whether we're talking of race or gender, we've still got a long way to go in this country. It starts by talking about it and, more importantly, listening intently while the other speaks. But we can't do that here can we. For some reason -- namely the paranoid need to preserve and maintain dominance -- white men can do nothing but pay lip service to what the needs of women and people of color. I say share the power, baby. We won't bite ya!
Mathman-Thanks for the interesting perspective on this post. As I said to DCup, this is about maintaining power and using misinformation, fear and violence to maintain the status quo. But I have hope. The very fact that my thoughts and words made it to your screen and that your comments made it to mine is proof of that. We need to keep bringing this up and talking about it. We can't STFU now.
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
ReplyDeleteGreat post, Spartacus. I grew up in a suburban NJ town where the majority of people in town were jewish, and there was one black family who moved in at the same time we did. Race wasn't an issue. Everyone really liked and respected the family, particularly the dad, who was just a great guy. Maybe it's because of the town I grew up in, or because I lived in Philadelphia and now live in New York City, but I can't understand why there are so many people who would see Barack Obama and would say no just because of his race (aside: he's not my first choice, but if he's the candidate I would vote for him without hesitation). I find stories like this depressing, but also confusing. I just don't get it.
ReplyDeleteSpart-At the core of this whole tragedy, from what I have gathered,was built on a lie.
ReplyDeleteThe age old Black Man Myth ala 'Birth of a Nation'.
It is solid evidence that the some of the worst nightmares in our contemporary lives involve- "the black man consumed with irrational lust"
Obviously the flaw was in each of their stories...a true tragedy
Shakespearian
PiNYC - thanks for the compliment. Like you, I grew up in a neighborhood in NYC where the residents paid little attention to race, religion, creed and what have you. The cops certainly paid close attention to it, which also explains the high incarceration and drug addiction rates amongst blacks and latinos. I believe the Rockefeller Era laws were written specifically for that purpose: if you keep them locked up, they do us (read white people) any harm. That myth still persists today and it's what drives people to not vote for Obama.
ReplyDeleteDave - Please see my comment above to PiNYC. I think it addresses some of your thoughts as well. You are so dead on about the bogey man thing. Invariably, white people see John White's actions as being irrational and that is how the prosecutor portrayed it successfully. But to you and me, John White was doing what any red-blooded human would do in defense of his family. As far as the "Shakespearian" comment goes...wow, I am flattered. Thanks.
For some reason I was having trouble posting a reply when you first put this up, so a belated one from me now.
ReplyDeleteThere's no excusing shooting and killing a man rather than calling 9-1-1.
But understanding it necessarily entails considering the generations and centuries of murders and lynchings of young black men by drunken gangs of white thugs to begin to appreciate the fear and rage and desperation of John White coming to the defense of his terrified son. "The Law" says he should have trusted the police to handle it; history tells a different story, wherein the cops come by, talk down the excited white kids and send them home. Then they catch the black kid on the way home from school or work, with results ranging from unpleasant to tragic.
One can only imagine how Aaron will now view the world, and what form "justice" will take in his heart and mind.
I'm taken by your courageous stance here in defense of the law, and moved by your sad analysis of where our society is at the turn of 2008. But I know that I'll never, ever be able to fully appreciate the situation Mr. White found himself in.
Great post, incredibly sad story.
ReplyDeleteCR/CDP- thanks. I'm thinking of doing a follow up post to this because this is still an ongoing story.
ReplyDeleteSome new information I need to get out is that the father of the boy who was killed has decided to forgive John White for killing his son. (I'm thinking maybe he should apologize to John White.) Also, John White's legal team is filing an appeal on the basis that the Judge coerced the jurors into making a decision or face the Christmas holiday deliberating. There were two hold outs for acquittal prior to her statement to the jury that they keep deliberating until a unanimous verdict is reached. One hour later one was rendered.
Spartacus,
ReplyDeleteAs I read the first few paragraphs of your diatribe, I thought you had grudgingly reached a sane but sad conclusion and had accepted it on every level. I should have known better.
First, do you know of any race-oriented murders on Long Island? I do. Let's start with the most devasting example. Colin Ferguson. A black guy who killed 6 white victims, chosen because they were white, and wounded 19, again shot because they were white. The LIRR slaughter occurred in December of 1993, I think.
More recently -- 2004 -- Anthony Battaglia was walking home from the railroad station in Lynnbrook when he was murdered by four members of the Latin Kings, who randomly chose to kill him as part of a gang initiation. After that, James Gottlieb, a banker from Franklin Square, was murdered by Reginald Gousse, a black nut with a history of impersonating policemen.
Here's the point. When race is a defining factor in crimes on Long Island, it surfaces when blacks and hispanics kill whites. I am unaware of any murders of blacks or hispanics -- on Long Island -- by whites who acted out of racial animus. In fact, I am unaware of any murders of blacks or hispanics -- on Long Island -- by whites under any circumstances.
Meanwhile, back to the present, where you claimed that "John White emerged from his house with a gun in his hand and ordered Dano Cicciaro off his property. When he turned his back to walk towards his home, he was pursued by Cicciaro. White mistook this as a threat and shot Cicciaro in the face."
You are the only person to claim White turned his back on Dano then turned toward him to shoot him. I don't know where you found this information, but your post is the only place I've read it. The Newsday article linked to this post does not agree with you.
It seemed you were headed in the right direction when you said, "The jury reached the proper verdict."
But immediately after this moment of clarity, the wheels came off when you said, "There is no question that John White never intended to shoot Dano Cicciaro, yet the fact remains that he fired the shot."
White chose to leave the safety of his home with a gun in his hand to confront teenagers in his driveway. He carried the gun because he had the willingness to fire it. Thus, he was mentally and physically prepared to kill. He proved his readiness by killing Dano. Thus, he demonstrated his intention. If he no intention of killing Dano, he would have remained in the house and called 911.
You claimed, "this was a tough case, particularly since race was involved."
Race had nothing to do with this case. Nothing. Dano and his idiot friends threatened Aaron White because they believed he had threatened a mutual female friend. If the idiot girl had not lied about Aaron, no tragedy would have occurred. In contrast, Colin Ferguson murdered his fellow train riders because they were white. Dano and his pals went after Aaron because they believed he had threatened a girl.
Your commentary went into deeper water when you said, "That's the lawfully right decision, where the critical evidence is parsed and weighed and a verdict rendered...The emotionally right decision would have been to let John White walk for having to endure the wrath of a bunch of drunk, over-indulged, ill-informed, racist white kids like Dano Cicciaro."
Based on your claims, you're satisfied with OJ Simpson's acquittal. After all, OJ's ex-wife and her friend Ron Goldman enraged OJ and subjected him to some humiliation. So he killed them, which in your world seems to be justified by the discomfort OJ experienced due to ex-wife's behavior.
You're claiming that anyone who is publicly humiliated or intimidated -- but untouched by physical violence -- has suffered enough emotional damage that murdering the humiliators or intimidators is reasonable. For a guy who rejects religion, your idea of just-deserts goes way beyond an eye for an eye. In your view an act that barely reaches the level of misdemeanor is merely neutralized by the commission of a capital crime, a felony of the highest order.
You made one accurate point when you said, "But courts and juries aren't supposed to deal in emotions. Just the facts."
That's right. Just the facts. White walked out of his house with a loaded handgun, safety off, and his son behind him with a shotgun. When the emotion and tension of the moment overtook White, he fired his pistol at Dano from a distance of about three inches. The scene is remarkably close to a summary execution. White was not defending himself. If he'd wanted to defend himself, he would have stayed in his house and called the cops. The family was safely behind locked doors and windows, and the police were available. White chose to attempt to intimidate Dano and his friends. White knew he was safe in his house. He was armed and he could see and hear the hostile teens outside. But he chose to forgo safety to play tough guy.
You carry your argument further afield when you say, "But while the facts say John White was wrong to emerge from his house with a loaded handgun and shoot Dano Cicciaro, it was EQUALLY as wrong for Dano Cicciaro and his four friends to show up at the White's to menace and threaten Aaron White."
Now you are claiming that shooting and killing a person is EQUAL to yelling threats at someone safely inside a locked house. Killing EQUALS threatening. Not a chance. Not a chance. Not in any way.
You go further off the deep end when you say, "Some may argue that Dano's actions didn't kill anyone. Think again. Dano's actions that night got him killed by a man with a gun who did not trust that the law would be on his side."
You are working overtime to blame the murder victim. Dano was killed by a man with a gun. White killed Dano. White killed Dano. Dano did not kill himself. It is not possible to kill a person with words. No one has ever killed anyone with a magic spell or incantation. No matter how abusive the words may be, they are not bullets.
Dano's behavior affected White, but it was White who armed himself with a gun, and it was White who shot Dano. If White had been carrying a bat instead of a gun, this story would have been forgotten long ago, even though when white guys in Queens hit black car thieves with bats, it's big news. Meanwhile, you have now painted White as a paranoid nut who killed Dano for reasons that defy reality. As reported, the White family had called 911 in the past and the police responded. White had every reason to expect the cops would rush to help him. Thus, the absence of a call to 911 suggests he wanted to confront Dano and his buddies.
Next you move into the area of fiction when you say, "John White...is one of tens of thousands of successful black men who were raised in the deep South and have vividly clear personal memories or have heard first-hand narratives of the beatings, lynchings and killings at the hands of white men; some of them cops."
Nonsense. This guy moved to the suburbs to escape the threat of black-on-black crime. He moved to a predominantly white area precisely because he knew it was safe. I'll bet White experienced zero significant racism in his life and knew few people who had. I'll also bet he knew blacks who'd been murdered or violently attacked by other blacks. He himself may have been attacked in his life. But if he were, his attackers were blacks, not whites.
You extend your fabricaton by claiming, "This deep mistrust for whites (especially police officers) is not something one would expect a black man like John White to forget very easily; even after achieving home ownership in the affluent town of Miller Place, NY."
You have no basis for claiming White distrusted whites. You are simply tailoring your beliefs to fit the situation. Meanwhile, your digressions are an attempt to step away from the simple fact that White left the safety of his home to point a gun at Dano's face and ultimately pull the trigger. And as your friend said, "had John White called 9-1-1, several squad cars would have arrived in less than 5 minutes and would have arrested Cicciaro and his friends. All John White had to do was stay in his home, lock the doors and call the cops."
You then add more irrelevant information to the mix when you say, "Dano Cicciaro, mourned though he may be, was not the aggrieved innocent victim his parents and friends make him to be."
You're the only person to see him as aggrieved and innocent. However, Dano is a murder victim. That's clear. He's dead because White shot him.
You say, "there is more to this story than most white folks are willing to admit to. This is not simply a case of racially-charged manslaughter."
In other words, you're admitting that racial prejudice drove White to shoot Dano. On that we agree. I think White confronted the teens in his driveway because he believed he could intimidate a handful of white kids if he had his gun in his hand. If a gang of black teens were in the driveway shouting the same threats at Aaron, I'll bet White would have stayed in and called the cops because he would have assumed someone in a group of hostile blacks was carrying a gun.
Then you go full speed into racial matters that have zero connection to this case when you say, "Yet ask any white person how they would respond if a black family moved next door to them, and they would be looking for ways to sell before their property values sank."
Where do you get this stuff? What race are White's neighbors? What race are most residents of White's town? Are there for-sale signs in front of every white-owned property? Meanwhile, if your statement were true, how would you explain the fact that whites are buying property in Harlem, Bed-Stuy, Fort Greene, and every other black section of NY City?
Then you become more outrageous when you say, "They would say that they do not begrudge a black person any of his or her successes... But would they live next to a black man? Not on your fucking life."
These claims apparently emerge fully formed from your head. But I do not believe you can supply a single example of a white person who moved out of his suburban home because black neighbors moved in next door. If you want to examine white migration out of cities when and where rising crime rates and crappy schools motivated them, well, that's one thing. But those days are gone. Crime has dropped so much that even East New York is looking good to white real estate buyers. But many schools are still disastrous.
You add to your imagined wrongs by saying, "We still blame the black community for all that is wrong in this country and John White's conviction will do nothing but perpetuate that lie. He committed a crime. Of that, there is no doubt."
John White is black and he committed manslaughter. On one hand you state that America deceives itself by blaming all problems on blacks. First, this statement is just silly. Anyway, you call the statement a lie. Then you admit that White committed a crime. A black man committed a crime. Thus, you undermine your first claim. In any case, there is no doubt that blacks commit crimes at many times the rate of whites. But there are many other problems in the country aside from high crime rates in the black community.
You raised a few questions, like, "why is there no one decrying the acts of Dano Cicciaro's friends? Why aren't they being brought up on charges of menacing?"
Menacing is a misdemeanor. Meanwhile, is there any reason to think someone in the White family filed a complaint with the cops over the issue of menacing? Or do the Whites have other matters to face?
You asked, "Why is so little commentary being offered on the significance of Jessica Herbert's lie?"
Perhaps there is an issue of libel and slander here. By her words she harmed Aaron's reputation and set in motion a chain of events that led to Dano's death. Maybe it is possible for the White's to sue her in civil court. But her actions were not criminal. Thus, the police have no reason to become involved.
You asked, "Why is no one outraged by the Cicciaro's raucous celebration after the guilty verdict was handed down? The Cicciaros were celebrating and hugging one another and calling this verdict a victory. A victory of what exactly? A victory of white culture over black? A victory of good over evil?"
You've got to be kidding? Dano was murdered and the murderer was convicted. Perhaps some people behaved in an unseemly way. But what of it? Really. Who cares? If you want outrage, consider the outright fist-pumping joyfulness and exhilaration that emerged when OJ was ACQUITTED for killing two white people he obviously killed. Explain that one.
You predicted, "This is the type of utter shamelessness that spawns other Dano Ciccaros into our midst, and will continue to incite good men like John White into committing senseless crimes."
What? What? In other words, when women wearing provocative clothes are raped, it's their fault for inciting good men to commit senseless crimes.
You went all the way with, "The sad thing in all this is that neither the black nor the white community will see this as another defeat for American society. Black folks will see this as another instance of justice not served. White folks, like the guy from whom I purchased my copy of Newsday this morning, will see this as payback for OJ being sprung. "It's about time we won one," he said to me. Again I ask, what exactly did we win?"
Who cares what some jerk selling papers thinks? Meanwhile, OJ is guilty and went free. White is guilty and was convicted. If blacks believe White was wrongly convicted then blacks hold bizarre views about murder. White shot a kid in the face but he had no basis for doing it.
And finally, you claimed, "I see it as a re-run of the same old racial bullshit; another sad tale in black and white replete with finger pointing and chest thumping; another emasculated episode of racial discord sanitized and dumbed down for the entertainment pleasure of the viewers of WE TV."
How difficult is it to acknowledge that a man who leaves the safety of his house to kill a teenager by shooting him in the face is a criminal. Race had no role in this tragedy.
Whatever, slappz.
ReplyDeleteBut bringing up Colin Ferguson is a bit lame, no? By most professional opinions, except that of the judge who tried his case, Colin Ferguson was insane. The fact that he was black and that his trial came on the heels of the OJ acquittal more than likely influenced the judges decision to make him stand trial. No one in their right mind would have found him mentally unfit to stand trial; that is, no one a an ounce of courage.
The cases of Anthony Battaglia and John Gottlieb were simply a case of being easy marks for criminals looking for a score. Show me testimony and or news accounts that these two guys were racial targets and I will eat my words. The perpetrators were caught, convicted, and serving long jail sentences as they should be.
OJ's case was a crime of passion, not one of race. He got away with it, because Johnny Cochran threw the equivalent of a Hail Mary pass by playing the race card despite the overwhelming evidence against his client. His opening? An admittedly racist cop, Mark Fuhrman who took plead the 5th when he was asked if he had ever planted evidence or falsified police reports to gain convictions. If you ask me, that was brilliant lawyering. But man did it piss off alot of white people. Alot of them and many still to this day.
But for you to assert that the White case had nothing to do with race is patently absurd. That he shot Cicciaro is wrong. He was found guilty and pending a long shot appeal that two jurors were pressured into convictions by the judge, should go to jail.
But the questions in this case still remain. Why weren't the other kids with Cicciaro prosecuted for menacing, which I believe is a felony? What about perjury charges against the girl who lied about Aaron White wanting to rape her? And, even if the story were true, was it right for Cicciaro to show up at John White's house with a "gang" of friends to call him out?
Let me put it to you this way slappz, if you were John White what would you have done? Because I already know what you would have done had you been Dano Cicciaro. You, too, would have shown up at White's house, filled with racial rage to kill a black man. The problem that Dano and his friends ran into is that this one was armed and had an itchy trigger finger.
Now what about the bet with Kelso? You're still a chump in my eyes on that one and a racist one at that.
spartacus,
ReplyDeleteI raised the issue of Long Island murders involving perpetrators and victims of different races for the purpose of showing that when it comes to that aspect of crime -- perp and victim of different races -- the victims are white and the perps are black or hispanic. That's reality. There is no history of Long Island whites murdering Long Island blacks.
Then you added your personal opinion on Ferguson, Battaglia and Gottlieb. Your comments seemed to be an attempt to minimize the actions of the killers. Unfortunately, that willingness to minimize the depravity of their acts is consistent with your feelings on John White, yet another black perpetrator who killed a white kid without reason. Even your comments on OJ have the air of excuse. "OJ's case was a crime of passion, not one of race," you claim. Well, that's not what his attorney's said. Meanwhile, he planned to murder his ex-wife. He bought a knife a few days in advance. He planned for the spurting blood by wearing clothes he could remove and discard, including gloves. When he arrived at her house to kill her after all his planning, he got the bonus of finding Ron Goldman there, and killed him too. However, a premeditated murder, such as OJ's double homicide, is not a "crime of passion." It was not a spontaneous response occurring after stumbing into a surprising and upsetting scene.
In fact, all the murders I mentioned were calculated and premeditated events. Battaglia may have been chosen randomly, but the Latin King killers were in his neighborhood searching for an available victim. Was he chosen because he was white? Hard to say without reviewing the case. But his killers picked a white neighborhood in which to find a victim. Gottlieb was killed because his killer knew he was a bank manager and the killer wanted to rob his bank. The killer had a long history of robbing banks. The motivation for the crime was financial gain. The Latin Kings simply needed to record a kill. But Colin Ferguson wanted to kill whites. That was his motive. His rampage was driven totally by race hatred.
Meanwhile, your comments about OJ suggest you feel some satisfaction that he got away with killing two whites when you say, "He got away with it, because Johnny Cochran threw the equivalent of a Hail Mary pass by playing the race card despite the overwhelming evidence against his client. His opening? An admittedly racist cop, Mark Fuhrman who took plead the 5th when he was asked if he had ever planted evidence or falsified police reports to gain convictions. If you ask me, that was brilliant lawyering. But man did it piss off alot of white people. Alot of them and many still to this day."
You mention white anger over OJ's acquittal as though it's a comeuppance deserved by whites. As though you think OJ scored a few points for the team.
Then you make a statement supported by nothing when you say, "But for you to assert that the White case had nothing to do with race is patently absurd."
Okay. Now you want to argue against yourself. Dano the white kid is dead, and John White, the black guy killed him. Thus, if you want to argue that race played a role, the only evident role of race is expressed by the fact that a black guy shot and killed an unarmed white kid. In other words, White hated whites enough to leave the safety of his home to shoot an unarmed white person outside. White had no reason to leave the safety of his house. No reason at all, except to escalate the situation with his gun-toting bravado.
There was no mob in White's yard. No torches, no guns, no battering rams, no assault on his home. And no one in his family had been injured. The only motivating force in the air was a quick surge of fear. But feeling fear is not a legal reason to kill. Moreover, there were no fences or walls surrounding White's property. No signs prohibiting trespassing were posted. His yard was open and accessible, as virtually all suburban yards are. Meanwhile, his house gave him and his family the protection of solid walls and locked doors, and, of course, he had at least two guns. Probably more. The family was safe inside.
Meanwhile, with respect to the trial, every statement made in a courtroom is recorded by the court stenographer. If the record shows the judge gave the jury improper instructions, the verdict will be thrown out and a retrial will occur. It makes no difference what the jurors said to each other in the jury room.
As you mentioned, a couple of peripheral questions are unanswered, like, "Why weren't the other kids with Cicciaro prosecuted for menacing, which I believe is a felony?"
Menacing is a misdemeanor and the Whites would have to file a complaint witht the cops. I figure they have other problems that are more important.
Then, "What about perjury charges against the girl who lied about Aaron White wanting to rape her?"
Perjury? Where did you get that idea? Perjury is lying under oath. The girl might have slandered and libeled Aaron White, which could lead to a civil lawsuit, but she did not lie under oath, she did not commit perjury. Teenagers telling lies about each other is not criminal material. However, her lies harmed Aaron White's reputation in a way that led to the fatal confrontation. But that's a separate issue. John White shot Dano. John White's situation is not affected by the fact that Dano was misinformed.
Then you wonder, "And, even if the story were true, was it right for Cicciaro to show up at John White's house with a "gang" of friends to call him out?"
"Right"? What does this word mean? Dano and his idiot friends may have committed a misdemeanor by shouting threats from the driveway. Thus, in simple legal terms, their action was not "right." But, they were armed with only their big mouths. But there is no legal death penalty for shooting your mouth off.
You asked, "Let me put it to you this way slappz, if you were John White what would you have done?"
I would have stayed in the house and called the cops. I also would have shouted out the window that I had a gun and I would tell the idiots the cops had been called. Since Dano and his buddies believed Aaron was guilty of a crime, they most likely would have seen the arrival of the cops as a benefit to themselves. No matter what, the pending arrival of the cops would have changed the dynamics of the situation for the better.
Then you veer off into lunacy when you say, "Because I already know what you would have done had you been Dano Cicciaro. You, too, would have shown up at White's house, filled with racial rage to kill a black man."
I think your attempt to enter my mind reflects, in fact, the anger swirling around in your head. Your insight into my thoughts is zero. Meanwhile, almost every comment from you about racial issues boils down to a claim that whites are doing terrible things to blacks and hispanics whenever the opportunity arises. Yet the facts of life run in the opposite direction. I think you subscribe to the usual victimology that afflicts way too many people when it comes to race. You've got no examples to support your anger, but you're angry anyway. You really should examine your own views and your emotional barometer.
I had an experience in high school that is as close as I can come to the Dano situation. I was with several friends out for a night of drinks in Port Chester, NY. I think we were all under the drinking age at the time. I was. Anyway, we went to a dumpy bar we knew in the black section of Port Chester and spent the evening shooting pool and playing the juke box. Our car was parked a few blocks away in a parking lot that was surrounded by some run-down apartment buildings. When we left we saw that our presence was attracting some attention from a few guys on the street, so we headed straight to our car.
But as we crossed the parking lot, we were attacked by a black gang. One of them smashed a large glass bottle over my head and blood went everywhere. Another bottle came down on the head of one of my friends. More blood. They were running at us and we had no place to go so we started swinging. Amazingly, it took almost no time before cop cars appeared. Our attackers ran off, leaving us bruised and bloody. But they took some hits. We landed in the emergency room of Port Chester hospital. I got several stitches in my head. So did the other guy who got hit with a bottle.
Why were we attacked? Because we were white and we were in a black neighborhood. That's it. There's no other reason.
Meanwhile, your attitude about Long Island begs the question of why you moved there if you think the place is jumping with racists.
In my case, I was born in Manhattan, but I spent most of my early years in a few suburban towns around the US before returning to Manhattan and then Brooklyn. I have relatives and friends on Long Island and I once lived in Port Washington. I found suburban living too bland, which means my kids are growing up in Brooklyn. Both go to public school, one in Brooklyn, the other in Manhattan.
Lastly, your vigilantism came out when you said, "The problem that Dano and his friends ran into is that this one was armed and had an itchy trigger finger."
You convey the feeling that you'd like to see the slaughter of a lot of whites, as though some great emotional relief would follow if your moral sensibilities were satisfied.
As for kelso, I bet him a dollar. He backed away. The problem is all his. However, you should feel free to wager any amount you want on the outcome of any event you choose. He will take the other side of any bet you care to place.
Goddamn that douche bag is seriously disturbed.
ReplyDeleteAnd just like all disturbed individuals, he's completely oblivious.
Better you than me Spart my man.
I'm nominating you for a Nobel.
N_s:
ReplyDeleteYou really are quite something. I keep coming back to that JJ Walker line I told the woman in Nevada when she asked me what New York was like racially without "crackers." I told her "people can IMPROVISE."
Spartacus took a possibly sensationalistic story, broke it down to its core elements and ultimately agreed that the Black responder was in the wrong and correctly convicted. What is wrong with you, son? This was a very balanced post. Mr. White acted recklessly and will pay the price. Are you saying there aren't racial elements to the story?
From whence does your prejudice against non-Whites derive? For heavens' sakes, man, you're Jewish! Scratch that. I don't think you and I could share one single strand of DNA. You're not Jewish.
Please, please tell me that "some of your best friends are Black." Please. So, I can refute that with extreme prejudice.
True, I grew up in a mixed neighborhood in NYC without much money so I do have a different orientation than you do, but without knowing the first thing about you I know that I attended better schools than you did, received higher marks, more honors, better test scores, have founded more businesses and could kick your ass in finance from NY to Tierra Del Fuego. Yet...I still have the milk of human kindness in me. I know how lucky I was that my father joined the U.S. Navy and made the most of his experience. And I know that my respect for the U.S. Navy far exceeds yours. I know how lucky I was that my mother's family escaped Germany. I know what it's like to think sardines and toast is a normal dinner. I'll never forget where I came from and if that means supporting affirmative action, quotas, reparations, whatever, I'm for it. I agree with Spartacus on this one. I think the US Justice system is fucked, but somehow reached a just verdict in this case.
Now, back to the bet. You expressed your opinion that Senator Clinton "could not be elected president of the United States". I wish to fade that proposition, and bet on her to be elected president. I am not afraid to bet you a dollar but if I lose, it will cost me $40 to DHL you the dollar bill. I reiterate my wish to bet you $5000 on HRC for President. Because you are junior to me in the financial world, and are a man of limited means, I will go as low as $1000, though I would prefer to bet more than $10,000.
You were the one who claimed "she could not win" so it is incumbent upon you to write me a price on that proposition. I am willing to negotiate the price, post liabilities to escrow or PAYPAL.
It is your move. I really didn't want to bring this up again, but I felt you were disrespectful of Spartacus's yeoman efforts to present a balanced account of a racially-charged incident.
I am therefore putting you to the test once again. Put up or shut up. BTW, did you tell your boss that a few weeks ago you renege a challenge bet to a liberal?
Kelso - Thanks again for your comments and standing in my stead. Much appreciated. But I've learned all I need to know about this guy and his thought processes and this idea that somehow I'm a victim or a vigilante of sorts. You and I both know that if a group of four black kids showed up on a white family's lawn and shot a black kid it would be justifiable homicide. Guys like no_slappz would never admit that, but it does happen.
ReplyDeleteFairlane - I run an equal opportunity forum here. No deletions unless it's comment spam which I rarely get. In my mind, we need to hear what people like no slappz are saying in these forums if only to draw them out and refute them. Really, I don't mind the vitriol. They're just words in the ether, dude, soon to be forgotten until I post another rant on race or some other topic to draw his ire.
NS - I'll concede on the OJ matter because he had planned to kill her. But his reason was his jealousy. Score one for you.
Regarding Battaglia and Gottlieb, you're wrong. The perpetrators certainly were looking to commit a crime, but in my mind race was secondary to the fact they were looking for any easy mark. In fact, I'd say that the same was probably true for your situation as well. The people that attacked you were criminals, to be certain. But having been through a similar attack myself on a subway train in Brooklyn, I was not ready to indict the entire black community for the actions of a few thugs who happen to be black. However, somehow I get the impression that you have.
As far as the John White situation goes, menacing can be either a felony or a misdemeanor. But let's be clear on Dano Cicciaro and friend's purpose -- they were there to kick Aaron White's ass. In other words, they were "engaging in a course of conduct that intentionally places another person in reasonable fear of physical injury or death." Naturally, you're not of this opinion, but how else would you construe a gang of white kids showing up at a black man's house yelling "I'm going to kill you nigger"?
That said, never once in my original post did I say that what John White did was right in doing what he did. I said it was understandable given his experiences as a black man born in the South in the 1950s, but justifiable? No.
Nor was his act intentional. In fact, his crime was second degree manslaughter, which is defined as "the unlawful killing of a human being without malice either express or implied, and without intent to kill or to inflict the injury causing death...." So, he wasn't event tried on the basis of his intent.
Do I think Dano deserved to die for his actions? No. But please don't expect me to sympathize with his parents for their loss. A white kid raised properly to respect and empathize with people of other cultures and races would have known better than to cause the trouble Dano did. A white kid raised right would have called the cops or sought to diffuse the situation by talking things out. After all, supposedly Aaron White and Cicciaro were friends, were they not? The fact is that a poorly-raised Cicciaro came looking for trouble and caught a bullet, and that's what makes it sad.
Victim or Vigilante, you? I'd say you are the polar opposite: an Aggressive Peace Lover!
ReplyDeleteHa ha. That's right Kelso. I enforce the peace with an iron fist.
ReplyDeletespartacus, you seem unable to see your own bias. It's remarkably strong and comes through in almost every paragraph of your post and in your comments about the White case. I think the following comment presents your bias in clear terms:
ReplyDelete"I had some difficulty reconciling my emotional sense with the what is in fact the law. As much as I would have liked to pull that trigger on assholes like Cicciaro and his friends, I can't."
In other words, you hate guys like Dano enough to praise their murderers. That's extreme bias.
A man leaves the safety of his home to confront 5 hostile teenagers in his driveway.
He's got time to consider his options. He's got time to call the cops. He's in charge of the situation.
What does he do? He gets his guns and goes outside even though he and his family are safe in the house. White goes to the driveway and after some heated words pass between Dano and him, he puts his gun in Dano's face and pulls the trigger.
Your comment reveals you detest the law that stops you from killing people like Dano. You really need to examine your beliefs. In your main post and subsequent comments, you endlessly expressed your emotional approval for Dano's killer. At other points you blamed the victim, claiming he was the cause of his own demise.
Like I said in a previous comment, based on your logic, you blame a provocatively dressed woman for her own rape.
slappz,
ReplyDeleteWith your last comment, you've just revealed yourself as the asshole I've always suspected you to be. How do you equate not feeling sorry for Dano as emotionally justifying his death. I would rather he not have died and I would rather that John White had not shot him.
Finally, I take the rape remark as an insult. Please know that any subsequent comments you make here, regardless of how well you make them will be deleted.
Thanks for commenting slappz, but you've just stepped over the line with me.