I've had quite a few heroes in this life. Fortunately, for me, I've never had to look very far to find them. As the youngest of the six sons born to my parents, I had several right in my own home. Sometimes the object of my hero worship was my brother Joe.
He's the handsome devil way on the far right of this 1965 photo (I'm the baby on the far left). Joe is every bit as mischievous as his smile suggests. Some things never change.
But he's also a great guy. A friend of many. An enemy to few. He's my brother. He's done so much for me in this lifetime, I can write a book, so I'll limit my anecdotal example to just one; it's reason why I was riding home in his minivan this past Friday night.
In 1980, Joe taught me how to play the chorus of "Fade Away" by Bruce Springsteen on guitar -- C, G, and D. "That all you need to know for for now," he said to me. "Practice them and figure out the rest on your own."
It's 27 years later and I'm still playing those same three chords along with a bunch of others that I figured out on my own. But I didn't play them this Friday night. We just weren't into it, so he decided to drive me back to Lindenhurst, so we could talk politics, listen to some tunes, and enjoy some hierba.
We talked about how much happier I've been since I've started writing again; how blogging has provided me with a new outlet for my verbal diarrhea; how I like to use personal anecdotes to make observations about the wider world around me. He knows most of my stories. Shit, he's the protagonist of several yet to be written here. There's nothing new I could tell him.
We also talked about what happened in Jena. La. He knew the story well and even made a point about the noose incident being a prank, as if it were some harmless, meaningless act. He laughed, "The white kid got his ass kicked. How's that harmless?"
I knew what he meant. The kids that hung the noose weren't playing a prank, they were looking for trouble. And as our our Dad taught us about coping on the streets of Manhattan, there were a few rules that should not be broken. Rule number one, if you look for trouble, trouble will find you. Number two, if trouble finds you anyway, either talk your way out of it, run, or, as a last resort, fight. Rule number three, troublemakers hate people with friends.
As we recalled the rules, he told me a story about how they saved him from a certain beating when he was a freshman at Aviation H.S. Back in 1971, when someone said "I'll see you after school", it usually meant a date with an ass-whipping underneath the number 7 train el that ran along Queens Blvd. His date with destiny was with a junior who was shaking down freshmen for lunch money. Joe had managed to stay under the radar for a good part of the first semester, but his luck had finally ran out, when the bully tapped him on the shoulder, one fateful 5th period.
Joe told the bully that all he had in his pocket was 37 cents. The bully became enraged and demanded Joe's school ID, which could also be used to buy reduced fee lunch. Joe refused and called over a teacher for protection. The bully was hauled out of the cafeteria, but not before delivering the dreaded, "I'll meet you after school" line. My brother was frightened. In fact, he was "touching cotton" as the expression goes for someone who was shitting their pants in fear.
As he was walking out of the cafeteria, he ran into Wilfredo, a senior he knew from our neighborhood in Manhattan. Joe had known him since his CYO basketball days at Our Lady of Sorrows. Wilfredo was now on the Aviation H.S. basketball team and had been trying to recruit Joe to play with him. He sensed something was wrong with my brother, and listened with great empathy and concern as Joe tearily opened up about his ordeal.
"Don't worry about a thing, bro." Wilfredo said, "I'll take care of this. When you fuck with one brother from around the way, you fuck with all of us." Wilfredo told Joe to catch his train home as he normally does and that he has nothing to fear.
When school day ended, Joe did exactly what Wilfredo told to. Sure enough there was the bully and a few friends waiting under the el. Joe was touching cotton again. As the bully started to approach him in a threatening manner, Wilfredo emerged from out of nowhere with a few of his basketball teammates.
Wilfredo: Hey Joe! Whas happenin my brutha!!!! (Slaps him five.) Whas going on!
Bully: Stay out of this, man. This is between me and the rookie (what freshman were called at Aviation). This has nothing to do with you.
Wil: Yo, it is my business. You think I'm gonna let you fuck with my homeboy here?
Bully: Stay out this!
Wil: (Getting in the bully's face) And if I don't?
At this point, Wilfredo had motioned for Joe to catch a train home. As he was walking up the station steps, he could see that Wilfredo and his friends had started to beat the snot out of Joe's bullies.
It was a beating not unlike the one meted out in Jena, La. The bullies got their asses kicked but no one landed in a hospital. There were no arrests or lawsuits. There were no suspensions, in-school suspensions, or prosecutors threatening "I can make your life disappear." You see, back in those days, the ass kicking would have ended it.
Like my brother's bullies had done in 1971, those white kids who hung the nooses had broken the first cardinal rule of the street -- if you look for trouble, it will find you. They knew that those nooses would cause a stir, but what they hadn't counted on was one of them ultimately getting their asses kicked for it. Problem solved back then, not so now.
In our day, you didn't look for trouble because it was always lurking and took little effort to find. If you had the misfortune of finding trouble, you did what you can to get out of it -- talk to clear a misunderstanding; run, if you knew the talking wouldn't work; fight, if you had nowhere to run. Finally, you made as many friends as you can in our neighborhood because there was always safety in numbers.
It may seem like I'm condoning mob violence, but really I am not. In fact, I hate it. But it seems to me that these days, the "rules" we have in place validate the acts of troublemakers more than they curb them. In these days of zero-tolerance school fighting policies and an almost autonomic response to call the police for every minor infraction or slight, it seems like the rules I learned for staying out of trouble no longer apply. These days, if you're a troublemaker who gets his ass kicked for crossing that line, instead of humiliation, you get a lawyer, a news camera, and 15 minutes of fame. No longer do you have to pay for your stupidity, stupidity pays you. So was the Jena, La. incident a prank? Maybe. But if hanging the noose was just a prank, then the ass kicking the white kid got because of it should not have registered a response either. After all, it's just a prank, right?
One More Article / Un Altro Articolo
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Over the years teaching at La Scuola d’Italia NY, I have learned that
children are not just students; they are careful observers of the world,
full of q...
6 months ago
The little fuckers are lucky they were not in New York or any other city playing their "Prank." They might have gotten their caps peeled back, as they say.
ReplyDeleteA "Prank" my ass.
A "reporter" in Jena wrote a piece detailing the "truth." And the Wingnuts are eating it up.
According to the "local reporter," Jena has no racial issues (Jena supported David Duke for Governor), the nooses were not directed toward the black students (the FBI disagrees), the tree was not called the "white tree (Even the Principal of Jena High acknowledged it was)," and gumdrops fall to the streets like acorns in Autumn.
Needless to say he's a white dude, and for the life of me I cannot understand how white people are considered "credible" when it comes to declaring "Racism is dead or a non-issue."
Of course, it's a non-issue for white people. I've never been pulled over and asked, "Alright, get out of the car Honkey."
Bullshit. Wingnuts want to water down racism, so people don't get pissed when they make it part of their political platform.
Well, Spartacus, you know you're preaching to the choir on this one. I like to kid around in the blogosphere but in my personal dealings with people, I'm pretty gentlemanly and polite. That works. Most of the time you can find something good about anyone. It doesn't always work. Sometimes you have to loose the hounds of hell. The way you tell this story, there was a certain amount of satisfaction in the build-up and the denouement, not the least of which was Joe's realizing how much of a place he had in his neighborhood. This had to have all gone down with some feeling of guilt, even though he was in the right. I've been there myself. It sucks so bad all around -- you find yourself owing favors and god knows what other shit -- that you learn why it sucks and never LOOK for trouble.
ReplyDeleteIn the New York of our childhood, there would never have been any noose but even if there were it would have been settled with an ass-kicking and nothing more.
I have to believe that if you are White in Jena it's inconceivable that there might be a LIMIT to what you can get away with. And this is going to happen to the underdog again and again and again again because of the zero-tolerance bullshit which catches the responder but not the instigator and as you wrote on another post "the bullies don't care." I'd go further than that. They are fucking sociopaths. The mellow guy who's look to avoid problems is not, but to deal with a sociopath sometimes requires a 3x response because if you're a GENTLEMAN you HAVE to make sure it's over and dealt with. Someday we'll swap war stories.
But what so funny about peace, love and understanding?
fairlane, you wrote:
ReplyDelete"The little fuckers are lucky they were not in New York or any other city playing their "Prank." They might have gotten their caps peeled back, as they say."
To be clear, it is your deep feeling that a white person hanging a noose in NY City would have died as a result of a retaliatory murder committed by an outraged black.
That means you believe blacks in NYC would organize an execution in response to a physically harmless act that angered them.
Your belief that NYC blacks would commit murder at the slightest provocation confirms one or more of the following:
1) you believe that blacks are inherently violent and prone to criminality...
2) that whites who anger blacks through displays of gestures and images must accept the risk of death in response...
You've managed to insult the people you believe you support. Congratulation. Based on your expectations of black behavior, you're the kind of guy David Duke wants on his team. Nice going.
spartacus, I've had the misfortune of knowing people who've been murdered. I assume you can make the same claim.
ReplyDeleteWhat were the facts and circumstances in the cases that touched you?
Meanwhile, way back in the 1950s there were about 400 murders a year in NYC. Life got more dangerous in every following decade. The worst year was 1991, I think, when there were over 2,200 murders in the city.
Based on the current pace, the murder total this year may return to those 1950s levels. My estimate, based on almost 10 months of data is 475.
The annual reductions occurred for a lot of reasons. Better policing is certainly one of them. Thus, calling the cops is generally a good idea when trouble brews.
spartacus, you wrote:
ReplyDelete"In these days of zero-tolerance school fighting policies and an almost autonomic response to call the police for every minor infraction or slight, it seems like the rules I learned for staying out of trouble no longer apply."
The toll for mayhem was much higher in the past. Thus, you are arguing against methods and strategies that have given us a safer city.
You wrote:
"These days, if you're a troublemaker who gets his ass kicked for crossing that line, instead of humiliation, you get a lawyer, a news camera, and 15 minutes of fame."
There was no expectation that the Jena issue would become a national headline. Of course, among the people who brought the episode to national prominence was Al Sharpton. The white kids and their families did not ask Al to visit Jena. But good old race-hustling Al knew Jena was an opportunity he could not miss.
As far as lawyers go, the black defendants who committed the violent physical attack on the white kid were represented by attorneys.
You wrote:
"No longer do you have to pay for your stupidity, stupidity pays you."
How? The families are either paying lawyers or otherwise encumbered with the problems related to crime and prosecution. Not one of the participants in this story has enhanced his life in any way.
You wrote:
"So was the Jena, La. incident a prank?"
What is a prank? A malicious, mischievous or ludicrous act. Hanging a noose is malicious at the very least, especially in the context of the Jena nooses. But the act involved no physical injuries, and I am certain that black teenagers and adults don't recoil in fear over the presence of a rope tied in a certain way and found dangling from a tree.
You wrote:
But if the hanging the noose was just a prank, then the ass kicking the white kid got because of it should not have registered a response either. After all, it's just a prank, right?"
Trapping a kid in a confined space and knocking him unconscious isn't a prank. It's criminal physical violence. There is no equivalence between an upsetting sight and a physical attack.
But based on your suggestion that both are just "pranks" you convey the view that vigilante street justice is fair and dispassionate and an acceptable method of handling disputes.
Kelso/Fairlane - thanks for stopping by and for your tacit validation. I think you guys got what I meant by this posting -- that, essentially, trouble-making begets trouble. You also see, firsthand, how easy it is cut and paste snippets of one's post and obfuscate the original point.
ReplyDeleteAt no point in my post do I advocate mayhem. What I do state, quite clearly, is that the best way to avoid trouble is by not looking for it. However, if trouble should find one, despite one's best effort to avoid it, the protocol to follow is negotiate, run, and, as a last resort, fight. Moreover, I advocate forming neighborhood bonds and friendships because it's a good thing for one's spirit, and because there is safety in numbers. It's a form of "herding" that uses the mass of the group to protect its individual members. It's not 100% fool-proof, but nonetheless, highly effective.
Slappz- It appears to me that the sophistry of my argument was lost on you. So, let me make it clear: If what those white boys in Jena, La. pulled was a prank, then the ass kicking delivered to one white boy should not be considered attempted murder or a felony assault. In fact, the charges were reduced to a felony assault, which under La. law, I learned, requires a dangerous weapon. In this case it was a sneaker. But even if one was to accept the noose hanging as humor, shouldn't the initial silent protest have sent the message that it wasn't? Also, what's lost in this issue is the fact that some black kids were beaten first for trying to enter a party that the white noose hangers were attending. To date, no charges, assault or otherwise, have been filed.
As for your mention of murder, first let me say how sorry I am for your loss. I'm not sure how close you were to the murder victims -- whether they were relatives or close friends -- but it's clear that your mentioning it here drives much of your arguments. I, too, have had the misfortune of knowing well someone who was murdered. I was 11 at the time, and though it's been 33 years since it happened and I have moved on, the memory of the events are still fresh in my mind.
That said, I'm not sure how murder ties into my post, unless your drawing a connection between my brother's incident from the 1971 and the prevalence of crime in NYC in the 60s and 70s. I'll argue that crime in the 1970s had as much to do with how the city's mayors (Wagner, Lindsay, Beame and Koch) seriously mismanaged government as it does with the actual perpetrators, which according to you were mostly blacks and latinos -- two groups for which you hold considerable contempt.
Pardon me for asking slappz, but was the murder victim in your life taken by a black or latino? Was this victim a close relative -- your dad? mom? sibling? cousin? If so, may I say again how sorry I am for your loss. But my site is not the forum for you to unburden yourself of your issues. Seek professional help or write about it in your own blog. What I seek and expect from commenters here is a rational and lucid discussion of my posts, and not a hateful cut and paste job whose aim is the obfuscate the main point.
Again, all, thanks for stopping by. I appreciate the traffic. Peace.
Spartacus, you wrote:
ReplyDelete“Slappz- It appears to me that the sophistry of my argument was lost on you.”
Are you sure you know the definition of sophistry? By connecting of the appearance of the Jena noose to the beating of white kid you have created a non-sequitur.
You wrote:
“So, let me make it clear: If what those white boys in Jena, La. pulled was a prank, then the ass kicking delivered to one white boy should not be considered attempted murder or a felony assault.”
Just like the crowing rooster does not cause the sun to rise, the legal violations expressed by the noose hanging have no connection to the legal violations committed by those who beat a person into unconsciousness. In other words, you have created a non-sequitur.
You wrote:
“In fact, the charges were reduced to a felony assault, which under La. law, I learned, requires a dangerous weapon. In this case it was a sneaker.”
Based on your preceding statement, if a person were to beat another to death with his fists – which happens – the absence of a “weapon” would prevent the state from charging the assailant with manslaughter? I think you’ve been misinformed. Anyway, the definition of a weapon changes with circumstances. A screwdriver is a “burglar tool” if it’s in the hands of someone prying open a locked door. But it’s still a screwdriver. There’s no store that advertises the sales of “burglar tools”.
You wrote:
“But even if one was to accept the noose hanging as humor, shouldn't the initial silent protest have sent the message that it wasn't?”
Where did this humor angle come from? Now you’re writing about comments that appeared in the press. Press jabbering has no connection to the events in the case.
You wrote:
“Also, what's lost in this issue is the fact that some black kids were beaten first for trying to enter a party that the white noose hangers were attending. To date, no charges, assault or otherwise, have been filed.”
This story is false. Nevertheless, you seem to believe it. You should check the story on my blog about Jena. Moreover, while the facts and circumstances of an ongoing situation might explain the rollout of events, the information is irrelevant in the prosecution of the crime. Self-defense is a reasonable claim for a defendant charged with a violent crime, but the knockout of the white kid was not an act of self-defense. It was a planned attack by the defendants. Meanwhile, as provocative as the nooses may have been, the noose-hangers did not employ any violence in their actions.
You wrote:
”As for your mention of murder, first let me say how sorry I am for your loss. I'm not sure how close you were to the murder victims -- whether they were relatives or close friends -- but it's clear that your mentioning it here drives much of your arguments.”
I’ve known several murder victims. All friends. But as far as my arguments go, I’m more of a statistical person. The anecdotes support the numbers.
You wrote:
”That said, I'm not sure how murder ties into my post, unless your drawing a connection between my brother's incident from the 1971 and the prevalence of crime in NYC in the 60s and 70s. I'll argue that crime in the 1970s had as much to do with how the city's mayors (Wagner, Lindsay, Beame and Koch) seriously mismanaged government as it does with the actual perpetrators, which according to you were mostly blacks and latinos -- two groups for which you hold considerable contempt.”
Your preceding paragraph is a claim of victimization. You’re claiming Wagner, Liindsay, Beame and Koch CAUSED crime problems. You’re stating that murders rose from 600 a year under Wagner toward the 2,200+ level reached in the Dinkins administration due to crime-inducing practices of the city government. There are no facts to support this wild-eyed claim. None. Anyway, as I stated, your statement is a claim of victimization. You’re arguing that the commission of serious crimes was not the fault of those who committed them.
You asked:
”Pardon me for asking slappz, but was the murder victim in your life taken by a black or latino?”
Like I said, I’ve known a number of murder victims. One was murdered in his home by a black burglar who nearly took the victim’s head off with a hatchet. He’s serving a life term in CT. The victim was the father of one of my closest friends.
Two others were murdered in the drug business. Both by latino shooters.
There were two cases involving white killers. The first occurred about 20 years ago. The killer was the deranged 18-year-old son of his victims. He’d been in and out of mental institutions and murdered his parents. The second occurred only three months ago. Same story. The deranged 19-year-old son killed his girlfriend and then killed his own father.
You wrote:
“What I seek and expect from commenters here is a rational and lucid discussion of my posts, and not a hateful cut and paste job whose aim is the obfuscate the main point.”
Your posts carry an unmistakable subtext of victimization. That gets in the way of things and makes reaching the heart of any issue far more difficult. It is nearly impossible when one debater believes vast unseen forces are working against him.
Like your concerns about “gated communities.” There are still co-op buildings in NY City that won’t accept Jews. Meanwhile, Madonna has flunked with a couple of co-op boards, as have other wealthy and prominent entertainers. There are plenty of communities with ethnic and religious identities. Breezy Point is still Irish-Catholic. There are Waspy suburban towns and Jewish towns. None of these groups has invaded the others with drive-by shootings. Then there is New York City, with half the population of the state living in the five boroughs.
As I stated, NY City has always been a city that looks more like a collection of small towns. But those small town/neighborhood identities are disappearing. Much of the city has become far more mixed than ever. The new identities are more closely tied to an overarching ethos than race or ethnicity. Crime is down and people get along pretty well. There’s very little “gatedness” here these days. Except for those gates we place in front of ourselves.
You're a hurt, angry deluded, and lying sack of shit who is simply bent on doing what those noose hangers did in Jena, La -- pissing people off. That's it.
ReplyDeleteThe only difference between that situation and the one happening here is that I'm not close enough to you to knock you out with my sneaker. Those kids got what they deserved and are using the law to mask their cowardice. I suspect you would do the same.
Do me a favor and, for once, stop being a fucking coward and write something original on your blog that people can pour over. Put some fucking skin in the game and stop being the hurt, petty, cry-baby, cut-and-paster that you've shown yourself to be.
Either that or acknowledge that there comes a point when words fail and that we must stand up for our stated positions. Tell me slappz, will you be the Alexander Hamilton to my Aaron Burr? I wonder if you even have it in you.
spartacus, you wrote:
ReplyDelete"Do me a favor and, for once, stop being a fucking coward and write something original on your blog that people can pour over."
You've never been to Jena and you obviously have an extraordinarily biased view of what happened. Meanwhile, you appear to have rejected the recounting of events provided by the editor of the local paper whose wife was also a high school teacher in the town. You have stated your belief that knocking someone unconscious in a planned attack is a reasonable response for some people who have looked upon a rope tied in a loop.
Based on your sense of retaliation, how do you feel about the reaction of off-duty NYPD policeman Sean Sawyer to the threat he faced a few nights ago?
An antagonist pointed his hand in a gun-like fashion toward Sawyer. The antagonist "aimed" his index finger at Sawyer. It was reported that some words were exchanged and that the antagonist said he had a "Ruger" he would fire at the off-duty cop. Sawyer the cop then shot the antagonist and killed him.
Based on your logic, the dead guy "deserved" what he got because he gestured with his hand in a way that suggested he wanted to kill the off-duty cop.
What are your thoughts on this incident?
Listen...please stop trying to antagonize me and bait me into arguments. If you feel you need to have the last word then fine. I'm not going to play this game any further because it's pointless.
ReplyDeleteThe Sawyer incident and Jena, La? Are you fucking kidding me? Please you need You can do better than that. In fact, just please stay off my site. I said I would not delete your comments, but you're forcing my hand here, dude.
My site is like the corner bar. Act like a dick and you're 86'd. It''s that simple.
The article cited is bullshit.
ReplyDeleteSeveral examples:
The author says the tree was not referred to as the "White Tree," but the Principal of the school confirmed that it was.
The author claims everyone knew it was a prank, and that it was actually directed toward the "Rodeo team," however, later in his article he acknowledges the D.A. tried to find a law under which to charge the "Pranksters."
Why would the D.A. look to charge them if-
1) He knew it was nothing but a Prank?
2) The prank was directed at the Rodeo Team?
The author also says Jena has no history of trouble between the races.
False.
A glaring example of racial disharmony is the fact that David Duke, when he ran for Governor of Louisiana, overwhelmingly won in Jena.
Jena's population is 85% white. Of course white people are going to say, "Every thing is fine here." For them, I'm sure it is.
spart
ReplyDeletethat is why it is SO not worth dealing with slappz... we all know he is an idiot -- - but he loves to bait....
and he will continue
that is why i just cannot answer him at all ---
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
ReplyDeleteI've been bullied, and I've had friends save my ass. It's really too bad that it sometimes comes to so much more than that.
ReplyDeleteAll smaller groups and disenfranchised individuals need allies against "the tyranny of the masses." Without our support (I'm in the majority demographic in most social slicings) the few WILL get bullied. It's always been that way, and perhaps it always will.
This is happening right now to one of my best friends here. It started as a stupid disagreement and misunderstanding at a nightclub. It was resolved without violence but not really resolved. When the bully saw my friend (an East Indian from Birmingham, England) the next time he started a fight with him and my friend beat the shit out of him in front of everyone before security broke it up. Earlier this evening, my friend got bruised up pretty bad by two thugs with baseball bats. So, they ball is in his court and he's weighing up whether he can live with the guilt of calling a guy to take care of this once-and-for-all. The smart-money's on NO because he's too nice a guy. A real gentleman. I've never heard anyone say a bad thing about him. And what makes him a gentleman is making what is probably NECESSARY into this massive guilt trip. Does the bully care? Who knows what his bottom is? Maybe the right thing is to eliminate him from this earth and end this bullshit once and for all. But my friend is self-aware enough to know that the guilt would eat him alive. The guy is so beloved down here that there is no shortage of guys who'd do the job for gasoline money and lunch at a cafeteria!
ReplyDeleteIn the end, might friend have no choice. And then he has to carry a hideous load the rest of his life.
So, having heard the story and seen the "friendly game of baseball" he endured, I would not want to trade places with my friend for all the money in the world, but I'll accept his choice whatever it is and have his back all the way.
Once again, these right-wingers really underestimate how hard-ass left-wingers really are. They have no idea that we're city dogs and have been weighing this thing up over and over again.
Come to think of it, I don't know a single dude and very few women who either don't have a friend and/or family member who was murdered and/or haven't somehow been involved in ultra-violence. Your visitor doesn't know how you grew up in Nueva Yoll; names like CYO and Aviation carry a very specific connotation that only Neoyorquinos understand. That he would try to accuse mi tio El Spartaco of being naive or pussyish, is weird to me. I've only gotten to know El Spartaco over the last couple of months but I've know him my whole life. Bad move, visitor.
kelso, you wrote:
ReplyDelete“This is happening right now to one of my best friends here. It started as a stupid disagreement and misunderstanding at a nightclub. It was resolved without violence but not really resolved.”
Details would add a lot to your preceding comment.
You wrote:
“When the bully saw my friend (an East Indian from Birmingham, England) the next time he started a fight with him and my friend beat the shit out of him in front of everyone before security broke it up.”
Again, more details are necessary.
You wrote:
“Earlier this evening, my friend got bruised up pretty bad by two thugs with baseball bats. So, they ball is in his court and he's weighing up whether he can live with the guilt of calling a guy to take care of this once-and-for-all.”
Too vague. Are you suggesting your friend might hire a killer to murder his nemesis? The “take-care-of-this-once-and-for-all” statement suggests it. If there’s no contract killing to conclude the exchanges between these two, then based on your narrative, the tit-for-tat will never end.
You wrote:
“The smart-money's on NO because he's too nice a guy. A real gentleman. I've never heard anyone say a bad thing about him.”
Maybe a few people would think less of him if he were known to hire thugs to commit murder. Stories, as you know, have a way of mutating. If your pal had his bully executed, your pal might die in a revenge killing.
You wrote:
“And what makes him a gentleman is making what is probably NECESSARY into this massive guilt trip. Does the bully care? Who knows what his bottom is? Maybe the right thing is to eliminate him from this earth and end this bullshit once and for all.”
What’s the story with this bully? You’ve hung the bully title on him for reasons known only to you. A little background would help.
You wrote:
“But my friend is self-aware enough to know that the guilt would eat him alive. The guy is so beloved down here that there is no shortage of guys who'd do the job for gasoline money and lunch at a cafeteria!”
Your claim is interesting. You’re saying your pal would feel guilty about his ungentlemanly conduct relative to settling scores. But there’s no mention of any concerns that reasonable people have about committing murder. Just your belief that he’d suffer some free-form guilt stemming from violating his own sense of decorum.
You wrote:
“In the end, might friend have no choice. And then he has to carry a hideous load the rest of his life.”
Thoughts of killing someone might release a little anger. But based on your assessment, actually hiring murderers who kill the offender wouldn’t strain your pal’s moral sensibilities. He'd feel some guilt about something after the act. But not enough to stop him from taking this path. I can’t reconcile your notion that your pal is a gentleman with your belief that he might hire a hit-man.
You wrote:
“So, having heard the story and seen the "friendly game of baseball" he endured, I would not want to trade places with my friend for all the money in the world, but I'll accept his choice whatever it is and have his back all the way.”
In other words, if the bully were murdered and the police were working on the case, you would tell them nothing even though it appears you might find yourself in the role of key witness to the conspiracy.
Meanwhile, it's an interesting commentary on lawlessness when you claim that a line of thugs would form to avenge the attack on your well-liked pal. You claim they would work cheap. Does this mean murderers have no fear of apprehension down there? Is there so much competition for jobs like these that contract-killing prices are at rock-bottom?
You wrote:
“Once again, these right-wingers really underestimate how hard-ass left-wingers really are. They have no idea that we're city dogs and have been weighing this thing up over and over again.”
I gather the preceding means the bully is a right-winger and your pal is a left-winger. In your estimation the bully has committed a crime relative to your pal, and your pal is considering murder in response. However, as I said, if such lawlessness and murderous mayhem are as common as you suggest, and life is as cheap as your willing amateur hit-men indicate, how much time would pass before a retaliatory killing occurred? Maybe someone in your pal’s family is found dead of unnatural causes.
You wrote:
“Come to think of it, I don't know a single dude and very few women who either don't have a friend and/or family member who was murdered and/or haven't somehow been involved in ultra-violence.”
Murder may have touched my life again. I forgot to mention a pending case in my earlier recounting of murdered people I have known. This is a good one and one that maybe only Columbo can solve. It involves a couple, a husband and wife. The wife died suddenly and mysteriously last year during a weekend jaunt out of the city to the middle of nowhere in Upstate New York.
People do die suddenly and in circumstances that seem mysterious. But this woman’s death was made far more suspect when her husband seemed to have confessed his sin to another person in our social circle. However, the husband’s lament was not clearly a confession, but his admissions created a powerful cloud of suspicion around him. Not least was the fact that he was having an intense affair with a woman he wanted to marry. Except he already had a wife.
He had a wife who’d become chubby and soft and madly determined to have kids. He had a girlfriend who was trim and hot and had no desire for children. Things got downright bizarre when the girlfriend not only attended the funeral, but delivered an elegy to the assembled mourners.
Look, NO_slappz:
ReplyDeleteI don't want any beef with you, friend. And we can swap personal stories back and forth. They are irrelevant. DistributorCapNYC sent me a clip from the Times about the very recent murder of someone I knew. That doesn't make me a hero. It makes me sad. I grew up in the same environment Spartacus did at the same time. What he put forth is exactly how it was and there are elements to it that have currency today. When the possible outcome is terrible, it creates an atmosphere of at first wary politeness which morphs into real politeness which morphs into acceptance and friendship, 99.99% of the time, with arguments settled quickly with a handshake.
What's bad about that?
As for my friend here, I can't really put him on a political spectrum that you would understand because outside of the US the issues are different. The social issues have all been resolved the way -- I guess -- you don't like. The politics generally hew to the political and economic. Which goods carry which tariffs, that sort of thing. He was raised as a Sikh and is now an atheist-humanist. I haven't the faintest idea of his voting record. I can say with full confidence that despite his great success in life he is one of the most generous and giving people with money and an ear I have ever met and I've only known him 10 months or so. I have never heard anyone say anything about him that wasn't a compliment. While I've never borrowed money from him, I have unburdened my problems on him a few times. I found him to be sympathetic and rational.
I don't know the other guy from a hole-in-the-wall but I have heard he's a hot-head. And I certainly don't know which political party he supports. He probably doesn't give a crap about it. If he supports a right-wing party that wouldn't have anything to do with anything because the right-wing where I live is to the left of the Democratic Party where you do. My country has gotten past all of the silliness that plagues America. We have no death penalty. We have single-payer health insurance to which anyone is free to add private insurace whose premiums and deductibles are capped at a very reasonable price.
I'm going to take a wild guess here and are an advocate of the death penalty. I abhor it and I'm very happy to live sowewhere without it. I also like that children aren't thrown into adult prisons. I also like that encrypted phone tech is normal. The cops and feds don't have to listen into any conversations because there is Zero Terrorism and very little violent crime.
But as in American cities, a city vibe very much obtains and it always pays to be nice. I'm sorry this situation has spun out of control a bit.
The argument was a silly one about a girl who goes out with the hot-head by is an ex-girlfriend of my friend. I can say with 100% certainty that my friend has no interest in this woman at all anymore, but they've reached a point at which they are civil and sometimes friendly with one another. The hot-head got jealous and started it. I draw the inference that my friend is in the right because I've never seen him DO anything to hurt anyone's feelings before.
With any luck it will all blow over.
Again, my goal was to back up Spartacus's original point about the paradox of how urban life teaches conflict avoidance. 435 murders/yr in NYC is equal to 3/yr in a town of 50,000.
There's an old saying in Tennessee or Texas or ..."...won't get fooled agin' uh-huh-huh"....
Sorry, that wasn't the one. Your President is just so darn persuasive I can't help myself sometimes.
I meant there's a saying "America, Love It Or Leave It," right? It's a very good saying, I think. You love it and stay. I didn't love it and left. I think we're both happy. I feel bad for my brother Spartacus because he loves his country but hates what he sees happening to it and is putting another idea out there as to how to make it more liveable.
I have no particular desire to see harm come to Americans or America but I'm really not part of an "American" conversation anymore. I am, however, part of a New York City conversation because that was my place of birth and childhood.
Do the cut and paste thing if you like but I'm not going to respond anymore.
kelso, you wrote a lengthy response to comments of mine that really didn't address the primary issue. The primary issue was your contention that your good pal might seek to hire a killer to save himself from the threatening presence of a hot-head.
ReplyDeleteYou suggested that finding a willing executioner is easy and cheap.
You wrote:
"The argument was a silly one about a girl who goes out with the hot-head by is an ex-girlfriend of my friend."
Nothing unusual so far.
You wrote:
"I can say with 100% certainty that my friend has no interest in this woman at all anymore, but they've reached a point at which they are civil and sometimes friendly with one another."
In other words there was a time when they were not civil with one another.
You wrote:
"The hot-head got jealous and started it."
It seems pretty clear the woman told the hot-head something, true or not, about your friend that contradicted your sunny view of him.
Also, you introduced the aspect of political viewpoints, then shifted gears on that one, too. That, in some loopy way, brought you around to pondering capital punishment. Why? I do not know. But you were the person who suggested the hot-head might face an unexpected privately contracted executioner. So it seems you are a supporter of capital punishment despite claims to the contrary.
No, no, no, no_slapzz
ReplyDeleteI am against state-sponsored Capital punishment of all kinds and especially the baoroque version of which prevails in the United States Of Embarassment. All of the rituals. That children and those with IQs under 60 may be put to state-sponsored death is abhorrent to me.
As a certified Wingnut bully and provocateur, you must have had many situations in which things go wrong for you at the drop of a hat because you picked the wrong person to fuck with. In your world, that's meaningless. You may say or write anything you want to anyone without regard to the other. Until it's not meaningless and the other person gets really pissed off. That's when the escalating war begins.
Everyone's blogosphere gets stale now and then. Yours is . Mine is. I appreciate, however, your taking the time to read everything, parse it and comment of the constituent pieces. It only sharpens my own ideas because you are often right.
Not everyone around these parts is a gentle as I am. You are lucky that the other city kid of my vintage, Spartacus, is also a gentleman. You would not like the bitch-slapping or KO punches the two of us could put on you.
Instead of doing this little exercise in finding everyone's hypocrisy or poor usage, put up a point of view of your own for once.
And let's see what we can all learn. I've already been hassled for this idea once by a NICE wingnut. I fully expect you to be worse about it, but that's cool, too. Because then I will take up Spartacus's offer and run a very painful verbal train on you.
kelso, you wrote:
ReplyDelete"I am against state-sponsored Capital punishment...That children and those with IQs under 60 may be put to state-sponsored death is abhorrent to me.
I've seen far more ink and keystrokes devoted to this topic, this topic of this thing that has happened so seldom it is almost a myth. That people with an IQ of 60 are executed, as though it is unknown in defense circles that murderers who have committed beastial crimes will have their IQs assessed and that this is one time it pays to play dumb. Please. You, of all the posters I've read, are smarter than this.
You wrote:
"As a certified Wingnut bully and provocateur, you must have had many situations in which things go wrong for you at the drop of a hat because you picked the wrong person to fuck with."
You got me on this one. I have no idea what this means. Skewered by Internet rapier wit. Yee gods.
You wrote:
"In your world, that's meaningless. You may say or write anything you want to anyone without regard to the other. Until it's not meaningless and the other person gets really pissed off. That's when the escalating war begins."
I have found that some posters have deep emotional connections to their commentaries and beliefs, and that they are emotionally think-skinned. However, baring one's heart, soul, guts, whatever, on an Intergalactic billboard is a bad way to reveal a sensitive self. Better to put the scribblings on paper and lock them in the desk.
You wrote:
"Not everyone around these parts is a gentle as I am. You are lucky that the other city kid of my vintage, Spartacus, is also a gentleman. You would not like the bitch-slapping or KO punches the two of us could put on you."
This part is amusing. Back to violence. The warm up -- Not everyone is as gentle..., then closing with ...bitch-slapping or KO punches. Threats. Amusing. And yet you seem to wonder why I think you find revenge murder and avenging murder acceptable solutions to problems faced by those you know.
You wrote:
"Instead of doing this little exercise in finding everyone's hypocrisy..."
I do wonder if people examine their own beliefs. Sometimes deconstructing their statements it's apparent questions exist within.
You wrote:
"I've already been hassled for this idea once by a NICE wingnut. I fully expect you to be worse about it, but that's cool, too. Because then I will take up Spartacus's offer and run a very painful verbal train on you."
I can't imagine words on a message board inflicting pain. Despite your flair and command of the idiom, your soaring proclamations run wildly and sometimes start from an erroneous base. Nevertheless, they make good reading.